Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105 
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Post by Bowen on Feb 1, 2016 14:22:21 GMT
Title:
Add a "pull" capability to the game.
Current Rule, as written today, with Rules of Play page numbers for reference. (If Applicable):
This is an addition rather than a change.
Proposed change, as you would see it written:
"Pull: Healer – 4 (1/life)
Type: Verbal School: Spirit Range: 50’
Incantation: “I summon thee to me” x5
Effect: Player is granted the Out of Game state and must move directly to the casters location at the time of casting Upon reaching the casters location the out of game state is removed. Player must detour around enemy players. If the player had a wound on their leg they may stand and walk. Does not count as the player having moved if used on a dead player. Does not undo the fact they had moved if cast on a dead player who had moved. This ability may be cast on a dead player.
Limitation: May only be cast on a willing player. "
Reason this change would benefit Amtgard, as part of the V8 Rules:
Currently the only pull capability is usable only on dead players (Summon Dead). The intent is not to change this, but to add a more powerful version at a higher level that will allow a player to be pulled to "safety". This mechanic is common in many games and familiar to most players. I believe it would add to healer usefullness and make games more interesting. Because of the differences (and the level) I don’t believe it will weaken summon dead’s usefulness, but I don’t think it will be overly powerful.
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Feb 1, 2016 14:25:04 GMT
My initial thought here is I would prefer that the player be made Insubstantial instead of Out of Game, as then there is a counter to the movement. I don't know if I am in favor of it as a player, but I am not outright opposed to it either; the OOG effect just feels a bit too much here.
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Ausric
Circle of Knights
Posts: 11
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Post by Ausric on Feb 1, 2016 19:25:06 GMT
I think the better question to ask is: Does the healer need this?
Honestly, I think that the Healer is useful and powerful enough as is. I've got a shiny Paragon Healer title, too - and I think the class is plenty enough as it is now.
Furthermore, adding another ranged Verbal spell that needs to be communicated in the midst of a melee just adds to the confusion. It's hard enough for *dead* players to hear a Summon, or enemy players to hear... well, anything... asking live players to then understand what's going on with pull is a lot.
Then, especially considering the 50ft range, it can create a lot of confusion over *when* the player was removed from regular play (whether the OoG as in the OP, or Insub).
In general, I'm not saying it's a bad concept. I'm just pointing out that the intended usefulness isn't necessary for the class. Specifically when you look at the cost of the ability in the confusion it creates.
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Post by Brother Fredrik on Feb 2, 2016 17:48:05 GMT
Personally I'd like to see other than healer get this, but it really only makes sense for healer both thematically and ability wise. I'd love to see an offensive version as well, but after discussion, I realized this is not really doable in our LARP.
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Feb 2, 2016 18:23:43 GMT
I think there is some thematically suitable ways it could be added to Wizard. I am not saying it should, but a reverse-Teleport could fit with their motiff (players becomes insubstantial and moves to the Wizard). You could call it Ritual of Summoning or something along those lines.
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Ausric
Circle of Knights
Posts: 11
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Post by Ausric on Feb 2, 2016 19:41:12 GMT
Astral Intervention already renders a target Insubstantial as an offensive spell.
A spell that causes an opposing player to act in a certain way creates a lot of loopholes and confusion - hence why the v8 team got rid of Charm. For instance - how fast does the player have to move? Do they have to move directly, despite potential harm? Etc.
Of course, this is me coming from the rules as competition perspective. Thematically either could work, but that's not all that matters here.
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Feb 2, 2016 21:02:04 GMT
Astral Intervention already renders a target Insubstantial as an offensive spell. A spell that causes an opposing player to act in a certain way creates a lot of loopholes and confusion - hence why the v8 team got rid of Charm. For instance - how fast does the player have to move? Do they have to move directly, despite potential harm? Etc. Of course, this is me coming from the rules as competition perspective. Thematically either could work, but that's not all that matters here. For sure, I am not sold on the idea, but it isn't like you don't have the same issues with Teleport. |
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Post by Brother Fredrik on Feb 3, 2016 0:46:29 GMT
I don't think that an offensive pull would be a good idea. I'd like to see it but I know it would not work well. Pulling someone into a group of enemy players is just asking for people to cheese it as well as potential injuries as they try and escape before they get their armor stripped away.
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Ausric
Circle of Knights
Posts: 11
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Post by Ausric on Feb 4, 2016 0:02:02 GMT
Astral Intervention already renders a target Insubstantial as an offensive spell. A spell that causes an opposing player to act in a certain way creates a lot of loopholes and confusion - hence why the v8 team got rid of Charm. For instance - how fast does the player have to move? Do they have to move directly, despite potential harm? Etc. Of course, this is me coming from the rules as competition perspective. Thematically either could work, but that's not all that matters here. For sure, I am not sold on the idea, but it isn't like you don't have the same issues with Teleport. "The same issues with Teleport" isn't entirely accurate, since I was talking about opposing players in this "Offensive Pull" scenario. Sure, you have the same issues with Teleport where the person using it can basically use it like a Shadow Step - but that's less of an issue to me personally as forcing someone else into a potentially confusing situation. |
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Post by Brother Fredrik on Feb 4, 2016 16:39:16 GMT
I think we're all agreed that an offensive pull would be a bad idea so no need to consider it. So lets focus on the friendly pull idea. Would an insub state make it more palatable for you guys? I'm OK with that. The idea behind OoG was to basically make it instant and justifying the fact that they can walk on a wounded leg. Thematically I'm looking at it a a physical pull that would happen too quickly for the enemy to react. Since we can't make that happen real time, this was my "fix".
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Feb 5, 2016 13:12:59 GMT
Sorry Ausric, in my mind we had already moved past Offensive use, which was why I spoke to Teleport.
@fredrik - I think Insub is the correct state here, not OOG. Teleport is also "instant", but if you are down a leg, you gotta hobble buddy.
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Ausric
Circle of Knights
Posts: 11
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Post by Ausric on Feb 5, 2016 14:11:26 GMT
Ah, my mistake for hanging on to the Offensive concept. Didn't realize you guys had moved on.
I still don't think the ability is needed, even as a support spell. But, that's me.
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Feb 5, 2016 15:07:04 GMT
Ah, my mistake for hanging on to the Offensive concept. Didn't realize you guys had moved on. I still don't think the ability is needed, even as a support spell. But, that's me. I think that is definitely the conversation to have now. It is pretty clear it would be chaos as an offensive spell, and since it is mechanically a reverse Teleport, I think the Insub vs. OOG should land on the Insub side. Without further input to those points, I think we are definitely talking about "How does this improve the game?" My main concern is it is a solution looking for a problem. I don't know that "we don't have a pull for alive players" is enough of a problem statement in my mind, and I don't know that adding this one magic to Healer improves the game as a whole (though it certainly doesn't leave it worse off). Conceptually I think it may have some minor negative effects on battlegames as it allows a Healer to hang further back than they normally would? I am not sold on the idea, but at least we have the mechanics now to really dig into the idea itself! |
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on May 26, 2016 4:03:49 GMT
Will not be moving forward.
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