Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105 
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Post by Bowen on Feb 1, 2016 19:14:23 GMT
Title:
Blood and Thunder tweak
Current Rule, as written today, with Rules of Play page numbers for reference. (If Applicable):
"Blood and Thunder
T: Verbal S: Spirit R: Self
I: “Blood and Thunder!”
E: Player gains Blessing Against Wounds.
L: Kill Trigger. Player must still wear a white strip to denote Blessing Against Wounds.
Proposed change, as you would see it written:
"Blood and Thunder
T: Verbal S: Spirit R: Self
I: “Blood and Thunder!”
<E: Player gains Blessing Against Harm.
*OR*
E: Player gains Unstoppable.>
L: Kill Trigger. Player must still wear a white strip to denote Blessing Against Harm (or Unstoppable).
***OPTIONAL:***
New State:
Unstoppable: Player gains Resistance to the next Stopped, Frozen, or Insubstantial State effect they would be affected by. This does not include States produced by enchantments worn."
Reason this change would benefit Amtgard, as part of the V8 Rules:
"Currently, the accepted role of the Barbarian is that of a ""shock trooper"". Intended to deliver decisive attacks, specifically targeting non-Warrior Armour. However, the current RoP has so many teamwork options that thwart a Barbarian from being able to make a decisive charge or stop their FaD, that it's rare to see a Barbarian be as successful in their role as other classes are in theirs.
By slightly tweaking the BaT ability to allow the Barbarian to Resist a State effect once, it makes it more likely that the player can perform their role - at odds that are reasonable. Making the ability a Resist that can only be activated under certain circumstances means that opposing teams can still Teamwork a Barbarian into submission, but there is now more of a threat presented by the Barbarian.
Personally, I feel that the BaH tweak is still a reasonable change - but it does represent a boost in ability for the class. Changing the BaT to use the ""Unstoppable"" State (which is modeled after the Song of Freedom Bard spell) is a side-grade, but one that I think benefits the class and makes it more palatable for competitive players.
Please note that this ability has been playtested in one of its two variants in Linnagond (BaW -> BaH) and Wolvenfang (BaW -> Unstoppable). The ideas are not mine, as well - the Unstoppable concept comes from Nick Piche of Wolvenfang, and the BaH concept comes from Talaris (Jay) of Linnagond. I just really like the both of them, and want to make sure *someone* gets them into the process."
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Feb 1, 2016 19:34:34 GMT
I have clarified with Ausric that the Blessing Against Harm OR Unstoppable is a question we would answer, the intent is that Goldenvale would submit (if we choose to) either changing Blessing Against Wounds to Blessing Against Harm OR Unstoppable.
It would NOT be a choice by the Barbarian when they triggered the effect.
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Post by needle on Feb 3, 2016 14:39:17 GMT
I think that adding a new State is a bad idea. It creates complication to solve balance, which is not a trade off that supports the ideals of V8. It also creates a unique class mechanic, which, from a design stand point, is extremely clunky and inelegant.
I am hesitant to support the change to B&T to Blessing Against Harm, as BaH is a 4th level spell and B&T can potentially be gained at first level with Look the Part, though I am not completely opposed to the idea.
Could you elaborate more on what options RoP teamwork options we are talking about specifically? If we are talking about counter play to things like FaD, it might be a simpler fix to adjust that ability than to change something else. Especially considering the design mantra of the Barbarian always seems to me to be “a bunch of a powerful abilities with low synergy.” (Compared to the Warrior that has “medium powered abilities with high synergy.”)
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Ausric
Circle of Knights
Posts: 11
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Post by Ausric on Feb 4, 2016 0:09:14 GMT
I think that adding a new State is a bad idea. It creates complication to solve balance, which is not a trade off that supports the ideals of V8. It also creates a unique class mechanic, which, from a design stand point, is extremely clunky and inelegant. I am hesitant to support the change to B&T to Blessing Against Harm, as BaH is a 4th level spell and B&T can potentially be gained at first level with Look the Part, though I am not completely opposed to the idea. Could you elaborate more on what options RoP teamwork options we are talking about specifically? If we are talking about counter play to things like FaD, it might be a simpler fix to adjust that ability than to change something else. Especially considering the design mantra of the Barbarian always seems to me to be “a bunch of a powerful abilities with low synergy.” (Compared to the Warrior that has “medium powered abilities with high synergy.”) I'm less of a fan of the new State concept the more I get into discussing it offline. I think the more elegant solution (if not using the BaH option) is definitely to just word the ability like Song of Freedom. It's a bit simpler that way. I hear what you're saying about BaH being a 4th level ability, too - but, other classes get even better things already. Monk's constant Enlightened Soul is a constant, non-dispellable 5th level Enchantment. Adrenaline is already like a super-Swift Heal (Swift also being a 4th level spell). I can definitely agree that the jump from a 1st level Enchantment-like ability (BaW) to a 4th level one (BaH), *is* a jump - but in the grand scheme of things, I haven't thought that it was a game-breaking leap considering that the Barbarian is a bit behind other classes. As it is, most Barbarians who are going to be a threat are going to be wearing Armour (therefore negating the need for the BaW aspect) and are going to end up blowing the ability to shrug an effect. Unarmoured Barbarians are just given the ability to shrug one of either. Ultimately, I'll be much happier with the class with either option. I'm just discussing the idea that the BaH isn't a horrendous boost in power to the class. |
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Post by Salad Olivier on Feb 5, 2016 1:11:33 GMT
I like the change to BaH. It fits the role that it had before but also solves some counter issues the class has. It also adds a fair amount of counter-play to the ability itself. Adding extra wording just to make the ability functional in a specific way isn't a great idea, and it over-complicates a simple class. I don't support the Unstoppable addition. Changing it to have wording like Song of Freedom could work, but I can't think of a way to easily word it with the intent we are looking for.
I don't think it matters that you can get it at level one, given that classes aren't balanced by level. All that really matters is if this is balanced at 6 and in line with the rest of the classes. And this change would make Blood and Thunder seem more relevant as a per refresh ability.
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Post by brothervin on Feb 12, 2016 2:06:36 GMT
The Song of Freedom version was super strong. Killing a guy then charging in suddenly immune to a state and running at the casters was very effective. Also it caught a lot of people off guard since not everyone remembered about the play test.
Iit suits the barbarian play style very well. I think barbarian is fine and people are just getting used to it no longer being the best me lee class in the game. But if you want it to get a leg up this fits well.
Edit: now that I have played Barbarian more, a few changes of heart.
blessing against harm might be too good if you can get it 3 times a game. Gank a noob and get to ignore a Finger of Death.
Blessing against wounds is somewhat useless. Half the time you can adrenaline the limb back. It plays very clunky since when you have it active it rarely saves your bacon. Something with such a cool and satisfying incantation should be better. I support the song of freedom version.
The class power wise feels at least average. I don't know if it needs it but it would make it more fun. I just played Barbarian all day yesterday and BaW never came into play even once.
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Ausric
Circle of Knights
Posts: 11
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Post by Ausric on Mar 6, 2016 20:36:05 GMT
The Song of Freedom version was super strong. Killing a guy then charging in suddenly immune to a state and running at the casters was very effective. Also it caught a lot of people off guard since not everyone remembered about the play test. Iit suits the barbarian play style very well. I think barbarian is fine and people are just getting used to it no longer being the best me lee class in the game. But if you want it to get a leg up this fits well. Edit: now that I have played Barbarian more, a few changes of heart. blessing against harm might be too good if you can get it 3 times a game. Gank a noob and get to ignore a Finger of Death. Blessing against wounds is somewhat useless. Half the time you can adrenaline the limb back. It plays very clunky since when you have it active it rarely saves your bacon. Something with such a cool and satisfying incantation should be better. I support the song of freedom version. The class power wise feels at least average. I don't know if it needs it but it would make it more fun. I just played Barbarian all day yesterday and BaW never came into play even once. To be honest, I forgot that BaH also included Deaths and "any other negative state." I agree that that might be a bit of a hike - if someone's going to burn a FoD on a Barbarian, they're already running the risk of them just FaDing on them. No need to also add the threat of the Barbarian outright ignoring one FoD, and then using FaD after another FoD. With that pointed out, I think the Song of Freedom version is the way to go. I've re-written the proposal below: |
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Mar 9, 2016 21:15:24 GMT
I would rather we word it "E: Player is immune to the next Stopped, Frozen, or Insubstantial State that would be applied to them, unless that state is imparted on themselves." The wording is a little cleaner there and prevents any type of magic item abuse.
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Ausric
Circle of Knights
Posts: 11
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Post by Ausric on Mar 20, 2016 19:10:50 GMT
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Post by brothervin on Mar 27, 2016 0:11:13 GMT
I would rather we word it "E: Player is immune to the next Stopped, Frozen, or Insubstantial State that would be applied to them, unless that state is imparted on themselves." The wording is a little cleaner there and prevents any type of magic item abuse. Would the rules committee prefer something with the "resistant" wording instead, which implies one use immunity? Otherwise I think your new wording is fine. |
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Mar 27, 2016 22:44:10 GMT
Maybe? If so, we can change the wording within ourselves. To me though, resistant is really a codifier for a specific situation. So if it was "Resistant to Stopped"; that would make sense, or "Resistant to States" - but because are between the two, I think spelling it out has value.
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Kraagor of the Mountain
Guest
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Post by Kraagor of the Mountain on May 6, 2016 11:28:13 GMT
I would agree that the wording should read "resistance to the next effect that would cause stopped, frozen, or insubstantial; unless that state is imparted on the player by them self" is good and that the slight power boost (and fun boost) is much needed for the Barbarian. As a specific example I have recently heard a barbarian at my park say that he is simply going to stop levelling at 4th level because Brutal Strike and Blood and Thunder are just not worth the time.
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on May 26, 2016 4:08:06 GMT
Not moving forward. Requires playtesting.
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