Gymir
Kingdom Officers
Posts: 51
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Post by Gymir on Nov 11, 2013 19:43:51 GMT
The jist of this post is in the title. In your opinion, what are the benefits for you, your park, and the kingdom in moving to a Floating Crown system? What issues do you foresee, and how do you anticipate solving them? How do you think a Floating Crown Kingdom would be run? Please include any relevant observations of other kingdoms, past experience, etc.
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Gymir
Kingdom Officers
Posts: 51
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Post by Gymir on Nov 11, 2013 20:02:11 GMT
My responses:
Personal Benefits: I would be able to run for a kingdom level offices, allowing my contributions to the game to have a broader impact. I would be able to vote for the officers of the kingdom and Althing decisions, allowing me to have some sort of influence over the decision making processes that effect my enjoyment of the game. My opinions and ideas would likely receive more respect and considerations from the officers, as I would be able to participate in their election.
Park Benefits: I believe that my park would have better representation in Kingdom politics, would most likely have more regular visits and interaction with officers, and would probably become more active in the government of not only the kingdom but also our local group as a result of having a impact on decision making.
Kingdom Benefits: Allow leaders with new perspectives and talents to run for office, at the same time relieving some of the current leadership that has been in office regularly from what they may see as an obligation. Likely more communication and camaraderie within the kingdom. Less drama and resentment about the current political structure. More focus on improving the game for all members of the kingdom.
Issues: - Voting would be more difficult to co-ordinate. This would require more effort from both local and kingdom PMs, and possibly other officers, as well as a well-thought out system written into the corpora. We are working on this with the test votes for Kingdom PM and while the data doesn't seem to be complete, the basic challenge of collecting and communicating votes to the kingdom PM does not seem to be an issue.
- Distance between parks is an often quoted difficulty. I do not really understand this. Wouldn't having officers spread throughout the kingdom instead of having them restricted to one of the more extreme geographic locations help to alleviate the issue of distance instead of aggravating it? I.e., if we have a monarch in NH, Regent in NY, Champion in Canada, and PM in Maine (as a general example), wouldn't more people be able to interact with a kingdom officer on a regular basis? Modern communication technology wouldn't make it hard for officers in various locations to have meetings every few weeks and lead the peoples. I'd like to hear how this would be an issue for anyone other than the people in Nashua right now, who would theoretically have less interaction with officers than they currently do.
- I really can't think of any other issues. Please enlighten me.
How it would be run: I imagine that it would be very similar to how the kingdom is currently run, just with a much broader pool of enfranchised members and potential leadership. Officers have meetings, probably through Skype or something other than when they meet up at Coronations and Midreigns, and communicate their programs through these forums, Facebook, or whatever other convenient technology. The Nashua park would probably need a separate set of officers for their day to day business.
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Post by Sir Nexus on Nov 11, 2013 22:44:48 GMT
I would like to throw in my thoughts on this by stating first and foremost that I am not from Goldenvale. I have flourished here, made many good friends here, received my Masterhood here, and am a Knight of this Kingdom. And though I am a citizen, and it is where I have placed my heart and allegiance, I can still state that as absolute fact. Before moving here, I had never heard of the concept of a static crown. The situation was rather shocking to me, but that's how my new Kingdom was, so I accepted it, because surely at one pint it was the natural and sensical thing to do.
I would like to point out that, being originally from a floating crown kingdom, that anyone with ideas that a floating crown will garner more visits for your park by the Monarchy, or that communication will be much better, will be sorely disappointed when and if the changeover occurs.
People romanticize that which they do not have but dearly hope for. Goldenvale Proper is the microcosm of the kingdom as a whole, and therefore its people will deal with things in pretty much the same way, just on a grander scale.
For me, though, floating crown is still the way to go. I fully support it. I feel uneasy being what I consider to be a privileged member of Goldenvale. I will make no claim and will adamantly refute anyone who would go so far as to say that they possess insight, wisdom, and ability of leadership that others, clearly, do not. Living and playing in Nashua, NH does not and should not grant us special powers. Foregoing the ability to run for any office (which is in my mind the least of my concerns) I cannot accept the idea of continuing down a path where our people are denied a voice. When we say we are the Mighty Kingdom of Goldenvale, we generally accept that to mean ALL of our populace and not just the twenty or so that manage to make it out at GVP. Twenty people do not make our events fun. Twenty people do not create friendships spanning across two countries. Twenty people, in short, do not a real kingdom worth regarding make. Traditions fade, and just as all things must eventually pass due to necessity, so to must we turn our eyes towards the new face of our organization.
However, it does present its own set of issues.
First, the Kingdom officers may not reside within a principality in a floating crown model, which automatically restricts the crown land borders.
Second, the Kingdom seat is in Nashua, NH. It is the place where the first monarch held office and is, for all intents and purposes, the center of a radius that we must set for ourselves. While I believe that all members of the Kingdom should be able to vote in officer elections, I do not think that we should extend running for office across such a wide-range. Were I an Amtgarder in New York, I would be more inclined to be working toward forming a principality as your groups are close enough and numerous enough that a strong case could be made for an eventual Kingdom. This limitation would likely result in the insurgence of more parks popping up in the New England area, which could both strengthen the Kingdom of Goldenvale AND help our subgroups reach their greatest potential.
The Goldenvale Corpora would need to be accepted across the board. Attendance requirements, qualification scoring and criteria, passing scores for various tournaments and whatnot, and voting eligibility would all most definitely need to be exactly the same, save for a principality who is at leave to create and maintain their own corpora. This would also be the same for Althings and Kingdom elections.
Essentially what I would like to see is a modified floating-crown Kingdom with a clear set of boundaries that allows voting privileges for all members but restricts to a crown-land radius modeled after a handful of other Kingdoms in Amtgard.
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Post by falquinn on Nov 12, 2013 23:18:58 GMT
Like Nexus, I also come from a floating crown originally.
Logistically a true floating crown isn't feasible with the current size of the kingdom, especially when you factor in Bitter Coast and the Canadian groups. Should Bitter Coast choose to go to KCG, and KCG accept their petition, as well as the NE become a kingdom in it's own right, a true floating crown would be more feasible. As it stands right now, I would suggest going to a modified floating, such as the Iron Mountains uses. Everything inside the crown lands (150 mile radius from Nashua), would be able to run for kingdom office, BUT everyone outside of the crown lands is still able to vote in kingdom allthings as well as kingdom elections. One thing that Nexus mentioned is also correct, the only way for that to work would be for all of the subgroups to adhere to the kingdom corpora.
One of the arguments that I've seen in favor of floating crown is that "we'll get to see our monarchy", because "GV doesn't travel". This is not directed at you Gymir, this is an argument that I've seen for over 10 years.
While GVP monarchy in the past did not travel as much as people would have liked, the kingdom is HUGE land wise, and the costs of traveling such distances are very expensive to say the least. Coming from a true floating crown (Celestial Kingdom), I can promise you that being a floating crown is not a guarantee that your monarchy will be able, or even willing to travel. My first 5 years in the game I played out of San Antonio and I can count on one hand the number of times that kingdom Monarchy visited my park, with the exception of when a member of monarchy was actually part of my park, which happened during two different reigns, making at total less than 5 visits in 4 years of not having a member of monarchy from my home park.
There's the old adage, the grass is always greener, but it's usually because the crap is different. Coming from the CK and the constant bickering that came from parks that felt unrepresented, or unrecognized, was cause for many fights. Someone from group X would be king/regent/etc., and people from their park and the 2 or three parks they visited got a lot of recognition, but people from other groups did not. This caused many occasions where people felt that it was a case of the "good old boy club", and they were only recognizing their friends. Which would often result in people running for office, and then doing exactly what they accused the previous monarchy of doing.
Neither system is perfect, each has their pro's and con's.
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celwyn
Circle of Knights
Posts: 23
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Post by celwyn on Nov 14, 2013 2:29:53 GMT
There is a benefit to the Goldenvale Proper park - You get a set of officers to deal with local issues and another set of officers who can handle Kingdom issues. No longer does your local set of officers have to be distracted with Kingdom-wide business.
Most of us from Bitter Coast expect it will be a modified floating crown. It wouldn't be feasible for most of us to run for office and even if we went full floating crown I doubt we'd be elected as the rest of the Kingdom would probably be suspicious of our ability to travel. You could even leave that part of it in the hands of the voters. Just a thought.
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Post by Shogun Tomahomie-dono on Nov 17, 2013 0:58:03 GMT
I Have Gotten To See The Opposite View. Having Grown Up in The Kingdom Seat (Since It's 2ND Yr As Kingdom, I Believe) I Have Watched Is Go From The Lone Light In The Dark East, To Having Almost The Most Subgroups. To Where We Are now. I Have Only Known A Static Crown, The Large Family Spread Out Across Hundreds Of Miles. Watched CG Grow Into It's own, The NY park, And The Northern Empire Become It Principality. I Have Feasted well During My Kingdom's summer And Starved ThruiIt's Winter. I Do Not Want GV's Crown To Roam. We Have Work Hard, Toiled LongInto The Night.I Want To See The Crown Strive Hard To HelpIt's Sponsored Groups Achieve What We Did.Now That We Have Picked Our Selves Up And Righted Our Throne; It Is Time We Focus OnHelping NY Do The Same. And Help The NE Get Back On The Right Road. The Path To Our Kingdoms Future Is Not Thru SquabblinG Over Representation Or Recognition (If It Was, This Past Almost Two Decades Would Have Been EasierlLol) It's About Working Hard To Further What We Love, Make SureEverything Is Done Properly, Put Aside Differences That In The Big Picture Of Ur Park's Future (Heck With Depending On Ur LocationOnly Baby Steps Away From Ur Own Kingdom's Future) Could Be The ThingHelping Hold Everything Back. So In Closing. Until There Are Parks That Can Not Become Their Own Kingdom Due To Their Local ToThe Crown, We Shud Be Focusing On Helping Our Groups Quell Their Drama And Become Their Own KingdomS, Not Allow The Drama To Become The Kingdom. Thank you.
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ascli
Kingdom Officers
Posts: 2
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Post by ascli on Nov 17, 2013 5:55:59 GMT
The Northern Empire is designed to someday grow up to be a floating crown kingdom. Built into our corpora is a "core lands model". You have the be in a group in a certain range to be considered a "core land" and therefore able to run for Imperial office. Any far reaching groups, of which we currently have none but someday could theoretically have, would not be considered core lands and therefore unable to run to Imperial Office.
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Post by Brother Fredrik on Nov 17, 2013 13:19:10 GMT
In an ideal world I think that NY groups would be their own principality, the NE would become a kingdom and groups in Rhode Island, Connecticut, Mass, New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine would be part of the Goldenvale floating crown. I think that is where we should be moving to. I think that with as big as GV is, we are doing a huge disservice to the Nashua park as officers try and be "kingdom" officers and still run their own park. But we don't have a large enough pool of people to fill two full sets of officers. Even a "subset" would be difficult since we only had one person who qualed and did not end up in office. So to achive these ends a floating crown is needed. But since we only have TWO parks in the states listed, I think we need to open it further. So my idea would be to include NY parks. In today's age of technology, we don't HAVE to be able to travel. We can communicate electronically through both written and telecommunicative means. So a floating crown that covers New England and New York. Northern Empire continues to work through the process to gain Kingdom status. (I also think that NE should consider only Canadian parks but that's more an opinion than a "belief") Bitter Coast... well I know you've said "We don't want it" but I think that you joining CG would be best for you and for CG in the long run. Because in the model I'm looking at , you are "cut off" from GV by a NY principality/kingdom. When it comes to that I think a hard choice will have to be made.
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celwyn
Circle of Knights
Posts: 23
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Post by celwyn on Nov 20, 2013 21:58:15 GMT
Would it be possible for us (Bitter Coast) to eventually join the NY principality however? Two of the officers in NYC/Empire's Grove were former Bitter Coast members (one went to Arrantor), and a number of us have been visiting NY groups over the years.
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Post by Brother Fredrik on Nov 21, 2013 1:29:34 GMT
That would be up to the principality if/when it forms. I think that would make more sense than remaining part of GV as it would then mean (at that point) that you would the only land not part of the floating crown (again in the vision I expressed) as well as being cut off. But I think that would be a choice that would not be better for you or form Amtgard. The close geographical distance between you and CG makes them a logical choice. Again I know there is history, but I think you are hurting Amtgard in your area by continuing to refuse to consider CG. Again, my opinion not a "belief".
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Gymir
Kingdom Officers
Posts: 51
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Post by Gymir on Dec 2, 2013 18:40:29 GMT
I think it's interesting that multiple people that are originally from floating crown kingdoms have said that it does not increase the number of times that Kingdom level officers visit all of the kingdom's parks. I've never been a part of such a system, so perhaps they're right. But it seems to me that if a member of Haranshire was a Kingdom officer they'd be at my park almost every week, instead of the two or three times a year that it seems to happen currently. And Caradoc, TRP, Blightstone, etc. would most likely see that person much more often as well, since it's a lot easier to visit for the day when a park is an hour away as opposed to 5-6 hours. Maybe that wouldn't happen though.
At this point there really isn't even talk of a NY principality going on, so I doubt it'll happen within the next couple of years. When Julian first brought up the idea more than a year ago there was conversation for a few months and then nothing. Every once in a while someone mentions it and there's a couple days of ideas, but no one seems to really be willing to buck up and do anything. I'd love to do more, but with school, work, trying to keep my own park together, and the four or five other organizations that I have leadership responsibilities to it just isn't in my schedule at the moment without quite a bit of external support. I've heard a lot of people from the Crown Lands talk about how they'd love to have NY form a principality, but I have never seen any of them actually do anything to get that moving. If you all expect this to be a grassroots effort, it probably won't happen because the large majority of New Yorkers seem to be pretty satisfied with the current system.
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Dec 3, 2013 8:42:34 GMT
That is, honestly, a large part of my issue with including NY into a Floating Crown. They have everything they need to move forward with a Principality (and probably Kingdom) except people who want to, or can, put in the effort. I don't believe it falls to Goldenvale to push Principality on NY. That said, not everyone is in your position Eugene, if NY has the tools to better Amtgard for NY, they should focus on that more, and less on trying to be under the umbrella of a New England Floating Crown.
If people are happy with the current system in New York, then why change it?
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Post by Ritari on Dec 5, 2013 16:47:04 GMT
At this point there really isn't even talk of a NY principality going on, so I doubt it'll happen within the next couple of years. There's an active facebook group, that's been active since the weekend Julian brought it up (You're a member of it too, actually). The current 'plan of attack' is an event to be held mid-summer 2014, to see what kind of turn-out and efforts an all-NY event would bring it, both from within NY as well as interest from other parts of Amtgard.
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Gymir
Kingdom Officers
Posts: 51
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Post by Gymir on Dec 5, 2013 23:12:13 GMT
I guess that depends on how you define "active" James...only two posts since June. And I'm planning War events for the NY event, which we're now shooting for late September 2014 for at a site about a half hour north of Syracuse.
Dave, I don't think that it should fall entirely to Goldenvale either. But I think that part of a leader's responsibility is to help develop other leaders to take over after them, and in this case maybe if the Kingdom officers/BoD gave NY a nudge in the right direction somehow it could pick up some more momentum. Focusing on a floating crown is easier because there's more people, including some in Nashua, who are behind it.
Many people are happy with what's currently going on in NY. A handful, and from my experience some of the more involved and experienced leaders, are not. If a player is just involved in their local park and maybe a trip an hour down the road for a local event, they probably couldn't give two hoots about what's happening in the mystical far off land of Goldenvale. This is a game after all, and having fun is what most people are concerned about, so if the politics aren't impacting their fun they have little to no reason to care. In my case, the politics have threatened my fun in a few situations, which is why it means something to me. Maybe the general apathy of most players means that it's not worth changing in the eyes of the decision makers. So be it. I'll get over it.
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Bowen
Circle of Knights
Posts: 105
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Post by Bowen on Dec 6, 2013 7:35:01 GMT
I personally think that it is worth pursuing Roving Crown, as I believe it is worth NY banding together and forming their own Principality. I guess the thrust of my point (which is up for debate based on the different views of the situation between yourself and James) is that if NY lacks the steam to move things forward when they have the necessary tools, why should GV focus on including NY into a Floating Crown where the work has already been done for them?
I think there are great reasons for GV to go Floating Crown and focus on New England while also supporting NY (without spoonfeeding them) as they strive to Principality and beyond. On a long term view, in my opinion, that is what would be best for Amtgard in those areas.
EDIT: Just wanted to add, when I say GV not including NY in a Roving Crown, note that such only applies to running for office and changing the Kingdom Corpora. Based on the framework Corpora I posted at the end of my last Monarch reign, my ideal vision is everyone covered by the Greater Kingdom having a vote in Officer Elections and Kingdom Business (such as Event Bids).
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